Friday, August 22, 2008
Hearing the Fathers' Voices
I wish this blog post addressed something else besides Todd Bentley's marital problems or, for that matter, anything to do with the Lakeland Outpouring. In fact, I'd planned on posting one of those carefree "it's Friday so lighten up" posts with chuckle-links galore. But the truth is, what we're going through as the charismatic movement right now is no laughing matter, and neither is it something to ignore in hopes that it goes away with time. It's time for us to roll up our sleeves, commit to sticking through this as family and deal with the raw issues.
We need the fathers' voices to be heard. Obviously we need to hear the Father's voice the loudest. But God has also appointed specific leaders to shepherd an entire movement, and those are the leaders we need to hear from now more than ever. We don't just need a rallying cry or a clarion call, we need heart-to-heart dialogue on what just happened, what it means and where we go from here.
After a brief silence, the fathers are beginning to speak. Below are links to some of the public statements released this past week. (There are obviously others speaking, but these are leaders I felt needed to be highlighted given their proximity to the situation or the depth of their words.) I've highlighted a few quotes from each person, but I encourage you to read through their statements in full. Don't just assume you know what will be said given who it's coming from, but instead undestand that every leader is trying to display the heart of God throughout this time. As has been reiterated throughout the charismatic body so often for so long, let's not toss the baby out with the bathwater.
We need the fathers' voices to be heard. Obviously we need to hear the Father's voice the loudest. But God has also appointed specific leaders to shepherd an entire movement, and those are the leaders we need to hear from now more than ever. We don't just need a rallying cry or a clarion call, we need heart-to-heart dialogue on what just happened, what it means and where we go from here.
After a brief silence, the fathers are beginning to speak. Below are links to some of the public statements released this past week. (There are obviously others speaking, but these are leaders I felt needed to be highlighted given their proximity to the situation or the depth of their words.) I've highlighted a few quotes from each person, but I encourage you to read through their statements in full. Don't just assume you know what will be said given who it's coming from, but instead undestand that every leader is trying to display the heart of God throughout this time. As has been reiterated throughout the charismatic body so often for so long, let's not toss the baby out with the bathwater.
From John Arnott:
- “I am aware that the devil wants to tempt some people to say, ‘I told you so.’ Do not allow yourself to become his instrument by using the sword of truth without mercy in this way.”
- “Be slow to speak out publicly and to judge prematurely. It is time to treat these people with grace, like you would like to be treated when you fall or make a mistake. Be assured that nothing is being ‘swept under the carpet,’ but we are bringing it out into the light of God’s truth in mercy so that we can interrupt Satan’s plan to use this to discredit Jesus Christ by destroying the lives of Todd, his family and his friends.”
- “While I will never blame Todd’s opponents for Todd’s bad choices (Todd alone is responsible for them) their opposition had a greater effect than any of his critics will likely own up to in this lifetime.”
- “The ripple effects of Todd’s decisions have been astronomical. I’ve not seen anything like it in my lifetime. I’m sure there has been, but I’ve certainly not been this close to it.”
- “This is the way it is for the kingdom: Everything is for advancement. Everything. While it looks like sometimes you’re taking three steps backward, if heart is kept clean and we stay accountable and we learn how to maneuver through this minefield, we can come out on the other side of this thing so much stronger than before.”
From Che Ahn:
- “It is not surprising that the enemy would use this incident and anything he can find to impugn the work of God to cause us and all involved to question the Lakeland revival. Every revival that I have experienced or studied had its controversy, and the Lakeland revival, to say the least, has had its share.”
- “I have every confidence that God began the ‘Outpouring,’ and the ‘cat is already out of the bag.’ Thousands upon thousands in our nation and many others have already received the impartation to cause it to continue and grow.”
From Rick Joyner:
- “ What makes [Todd] capable of such extraordinary faith also makes him prone to extraordinary blunders. … Like it or not, that is often the nature of those who accomplish some of the greatest spiritual exploits—they also make some of the biggest bloopers. Hearing about these problems did not surprise me at all. Since I have now heard about more details, I’m still not shocked. These are problems, and they need to be fixed, which includes repenting and turning around, but if we want the victories and breakthroughs we all hope and pray for, they usually come through people with the same kind of nature.
- “One thing that would help them and the body of Christ, possibly more than anything else, is to see some real Christian charity expressed in this situation and some righteous judges stand up, which is the duty of true elders in the church.”
- “This is a real opportunity for the church to show some maturity and Christian love. This does not mean compromise, but it does mean addressing this situation in an almost opposite way that we have tended to do in the past.”
From Dutch Sheets:
- “When something has the potential of setting precedent, birthing a movement and being reproduced as a prototype, we are no longer simply endorsing good brothers, good intentions and miracles. Doctrine and foundations will be built on these events. Teachings and paradigms for future ministries will be formed—in short, the next generation of the church and the move of God in the earth could be greatly impacted.”
- “We leaders in the Church have become no different than the world around us in our standards for measuring success and greatness. This has contributed to the body of Christ giving millions of dollars to undeserving individuals; it has allowed people living in sin to become influential leaders—even to lead movement, allowing them influence all the way to the White House. Through our lack of discernment we built their stages and gave them their platforms. We have been gullible beyond words—gullible leaders producing gullible sheep.”
- “I don’t believe anyone is expecting perfection from us—I know I’m not. We’re far too human for that. But we are expected to have enough humility to look the world and those who follow us in the eye when we miss it and say, ‘We were wrong and we are sorry.’ Our careless accountability has caused the body of Christ to be spiritually raped and abused. It has produced disillusionment and brought immeasurable reproach to our God and cynicism to His message. Concerning Lakeland, what was called the “greatest revival since Azusa Street” has become possibly one of the greatest reproaches. We, the leaders of the charismatic church, are responsible.”
- “Our procedures and standards of accountability are incredibly inadequate. We have provided camaraderie, not biblical accountability.”
- “We are again experiencing the disappointment and even disillusionment that comes when perceived servants of God fail. This is a dangerous time for us.”
- “Lord, have mercy upon us! Turn our propensity for judgment into mercy and intercession. May the disappointment and disillusionment that is ours through the sin of another, work in us a radical pursuit of You, Lord, Your Presence and Your gifts!”
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Joyner: "... if we want the victories and breakthroughs we all hope and pray for, they usually come through people with the same kind of nature." So, let me get this straight. Revival will most likely come through the ministry of people who are prone to a lack of discipline, immorality, deceit and family infidelity.
You know what is really surprising. Many don't care or are affected. I am not talking about apathy toward divorce or the breakup of a family. I am talking about the fact that life around us is not affected to the degree that some would imply. People still have cancer. People still have need of a Savior.
5 weeks ago I saw 6 pages of my son's EKG that was flatlined. He's doing great now but they had to put in a pacemaker. Let's talk reality check.
The truth is if this affects people to the point of overwhelming them and causing a stir in the charismatic community then maybe the charismatic community needs to re-evaluate its priorities.
God bless you Todd. We love you even though you missed it in some spots. Maybe you will get it right in the near future.
To the leaders - don't give this thing a voice. Jesus does not need us to come running to His defense. He will take proper care of this in His way not ours.
5 weeks ago I saw 6 pages of my son's EKG that was flatlined. He's doing great now but they had to put in a pacemaker. Let's talk reality check.
The truth is if this affects people to the point of overwhelming them and causing a stir in the charismatic community then maybe the charismatic community needs to re-evaluate its priorities.
God bless you Todd. We love you even though you missed it in some spots. Maybe you will get it right in the near future.
To the leaders - don't give this thing a voice. Jesus does not need us to come running to His defense. He will take proper care of this in His way not ours.
# posted by 
: 7:22 AM
: 7:22 AM
That is right.I hate what happened but we are still seeing God heal and do great things. My mom was healed of Lupus and arthritus just watching the broadcasts. She still has her healing even though the revival is over or Todd Bentley is not leading it.
Why does everyone think theyhave something to say or that their opinion has to be heard?
Why does everyone think theyhave something to say or that their opinion has to be heard?
# posted by : 7:27 AM
: 7:27 AM
"Hearing the Fathers' Voices" ????
Just who do these "fathers" think they are?
They throw titles upon themselves and as a covering for their deceit.
As much disrespect as I have for them, it is those who follow and support them that is the real tragedy.
Is there no discerment left in the body of Christ?
Just who do these "fathers" think they are?
They throw titles upon themselves and as a covering for their deceit.
As much disrespect as I have for them, it is those who follow and support them that is the real tragedy.
Is there no discerment left in the body of Christ?
# posted by : 9:37 AM
: 9:37 AM
True revival starts with a person who was once immoral, deceitful, unfaithful, and undisciplined, but through faith in Jesus Christ, has overcome and become a vessel of honor, earthen, yes, but containing the glory of God. Joyner must have voted for Bill Clinton.
As far as "Fathers" go, Dutch Sheets is the only one of those men who I heard publicly questioning things in Lakeland before everything recently fell apart.
The only two clarion voices I've consistently heard speaking the truth in love (rightly dividing without being destructive) are Dutch Sheets and J. Lee Grady of Charisma. I know there are others (I consider myself one of them), but the rest of us don't seem to have the same broad influence.
Should we really call these men "Fathers"? 1 Timothy 5:22 says, "Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin" (NASB).
These men who promoted Todd too soon share in his sins. I'm hesitent to call them Fathers until they admit their own fault. Just some thoughts.
--Art--
The only two clarion voices I've consistently heard speaking the truth in love (rightly dividing without being destructive) are Dutch Sheets and J. Lee Grady of Charisma. I know there are others (I consider myself one of them), but the rest of us don't seem to have the same broad influence.
Should we really call these men "Fathers"? 1 Timothy 5:22 says, "Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin" (NASB).
These men who promoted Todd too soon share in his sins. I'm hesitent to call them Fathers until they admit their own fault. Just some thoughts.
--Art--
I would suspect that at a level of ministry that affects thousands worldwide, the spiritual warfare that comes with that door of ministry is probably off the scale. I also suspect that ministers in that position face demonic forces that most of us will never encounter, so to say we know what we would do is spiritual pride. We may not fall to the same sins that Todd has but there will be a weakness in all of us that hell will rush to exploit and only by the grace of God will any of us stand. Actually the case could be made that it may be surprising that more don't fall and we might should be celebrating that so few fall. Does that excuse what they do? Heaven forbid, as Paul would say.
If you look at revivals of the past you see similar patterns. In the Welsh Revival of early 1900 the main leader Evan Roberts wound up a mental basket case for a few years after, not even able to see his family, even though the revival saw over a 100,000 Welshmen come to the Lord in 6 months. Maybe Roberts weakness wasn't a visible sin as Todd's was, but he was left damaged for quite some time afterward by the demonic warfare that revival brings with it.
In the Azuza Street revival William Seymore labored under the delusion that after receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit, if one ever sinned again he would be condemned forever. Can you imagine carrying that load? When Charles Parham, his mentor and bible school teacher, came to visit the revival at Seymour's request, Parham called the revival a work of the devil and had to be locked out of the meetings. And this is the revival everyone quotes for basing everything on the bible.
Revival is a messy affair, bringing with it hordes of demonic warfare. There were reports of satanic groups making animal sacrifices on the grounds at Lakeland as they came against what God was doing there? If this was such a work of the enemy, why would they be doing that?
My point is that we all want revival, but if we're looking for it to come with easily controlled sterility, and spotless leaders who never fall no matter how strong the demonic warfare they encounter, we may be disillusioned as many are now. Historically revivals last only about 36 months and tend to leave the church that birthed it in worse shape than when it began. But out of that flow movements that touch thousands and even nations. Hopefully one day we'll learn enough to follow Jesus all the way through without any confusion, but until then I will take revival over the status quo anyday.
If you look at revivals of the past you see similar patterns. In the Welsh Revival of early 1900 the main leader Evan Roberts wound up a mental basket case for a few years after, not even able to see his family, even though the revival saw over a 100,000 Welshmen come to the Lord in 6 months. Maybe Roberts weakness wasn't a visible sin as Todd's was, but he was left damaged for quite some time afterward by the demonic warfare that revival brings with it.
In the Azuza Street revival William Seymore labored under the delusion that after receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit, if one ever sinned again he would be condemned forever. Can you imagine carrying that load? When Charles Parham, his mentor and bible school teacher, came to visit the revival at Seymour's request, Parham called the revival a work of the devil and had to be locked out of the meetings. And this is the revival everyone quotes for basing everything on the bible.
Revival is a messy affair, bringing with it hordes of demonic warfare. There were reports of satanic groups making animal sacrifices on the grounds at Lakeland as they came against what God was doing there? If this was such a work of the enemy, why would they be doing that?
My point is that we all want revival, but if we're looking for it to come with easily controlled sterility, and spotless leaders who never fall no matter how strong the demonic warfare they encounter, we may be disillusioned as many are now. Historically revivals last only about 36 months and tend to leave the church that birthed it in worse shape than when it began. But out of that flow movements that touch thousands and even nations. Hopefully one day we'll learn enough to follow Jesus all the way through without any confusion, but until then I will take revival over the status quo anyday.
# posted by : 3:08 PM
: 3:08 PM
From Ross in the UK:
* Um, the problems with Todd (channelling William Branham, the business with the angel etc) were apparent *before* he turned up at Lakeland. His board did no-one any favours by letting him minister without sorting things through.
The smoking gun is the "extra-Biblical revelation". Admittedly Todd is not the only person into this - Rick Joyner, take a bow - but the Charismatic movement is a disaster looking for somewhere to happen as long as it encourages it.
I do not want to say, "I told you so" - my initial judgement about the whole affair was quite cautious - but, "those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it". Another stunt like this and I swear I will turn (back) into a Fundamentalist!
* Um, the problems with Todd (channelling William Branham, the business with the angel etc) were apparent *before* he turned up at Lakeland. His board did no-one any favours by letting him minister without sorting things through.
The smoking gun is the "extra-Biblical revelation". Admittedly Todd is not the only person into this - Rick Joyner, take a bow - but the Charismatic movement is a disaster looking for somewhere to happen as long as it encourages it.
I do not want to say, "I told you so" - my initial judgement about the whole affair was quite cautious - but, "those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it". Another stunt like this and I swear I will turn (back) into a Fundamentalist!
# posted by : 3:44 PM
: 3:44 PM
A bit of perspective is needed on Lakeland now. What actually happened? A local revival meeting - let's call it a refreshing - was picked up by a global TV channel and promoted worldwide. It became a global phenomenon largely because of the exposure.
Some leaders went in and tried to align and link Todd Bentley and the Outpouring with the Body of Christ. What's wrong with that? It wasn't a coronation, even if some people want to maliciously tag it so. Bringing in this apostolic alignment was probably what brought TB's flaws to the surface so they could be dealt with. Doris Wagner pointed this out. Again, what's wrong with that? Furthermore, it meant that Todd has appropriate apostolic input and covering to fully restore him when the time is right.
Sure, lessons have to be learned from Lakeland. But attacking leaders and fathers isn't the answer. Todd Bentley was a ticking bomb. That is not the fault of Peter Wagner, Bill Johnson and others who sought to bring some order.
Having said that, I still believe Todd is a man on whom God has His hand. The only difference is, his flaws and weaknesses (yes, sins for those who insist on being doctrinally accurate) are now on public record, unlike many who are castigating him.
Some leaders went in and tried to align and link Todd Bentley and the Outpouring with the Body of Christ. What's wrong with that? It wasn't a coronation, even if some people want to maliciously tag it so. Bringing in this apostolic alignment was probably what brought TB's flaws to the surface so they could be dealt with. Doris Wagner pointed this out. Again, what's wrong with that? Furthermore, it meant that Todd has appropriate apostolic input and covering to fully restore him when the time is right.
Sure, lessons have to be learned from Lakeland. But attacking leaders and fathers isn't the answer. Todd Bentley was a ticking bomb. That is not the fault of Peter Wagner, Bill Johnson and others who sought to bring some order.
Having said that, I still believe Todd is a man on whom God has His hand. The only difference is, his flaws and weaknesses (yes, sins for those who insist on being doctrinally accurate) are now on public record, unlike many who are castigating him.
" Please Don't Wound the One I Love", she cried out one day. While facing a crowd of people packed within a miracle service, leaning on the podium, head bowed, she continued to pour out her heart before the Lord.
Oftentimes, Kathryn Kuhlman would say: "You do not USE the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit uses the vessel completely yielded to Him. It's less of self.... and more of Him."
How arrogant and presumptuous are we to even think that we are the ones who WILL do anything apart from our complete dependency upon the PERSON and work of the Holy Spirit?
Why are we trying to build anything upon any other foundation other than JESUS CHRIST, Himself being the HEAD of the Church, not man?
The church is not built upon the foundation and works of the original twelve apostles. The Acts of the Apostles, the Book of Acts, was to demonstrate the things that JESUS began... both to do... and to teach.... in the power and anointing of the Holy Spirit.
Today, we are more filled with seeker sensitive knowledge exemplifying the strategic planning conference agendas of man, and have forgotten our Creator, God. We have become so full of our own plans, purposes and pursuits: to contemplate "our" next move of God, to set apart and commission laborers within our "own mission" fields, to over compensate ourselves by voting increased pay raises and then wonder why we have to place a heavy "tax" burden upon the people of God, because we want more.
We wonder why there is not enough resources to do the work of the ministry, when we have become more self-reliant upon our ministry, than to become more dependent upon God Himself. We have been harvested and gathered together within the Vineyard of the Lord, while resting beneath the brightness of the noonday, becoming transformed and conformed into the image of His dear Son. We were never meant to be processed and then self preserved within the church storehouses filled with the "atrophied" merits of their own grace. We have fallen short of God's Glory and Grace.
We are zealously overfed with pride within our own accomplishments, always attempting to give birth to something "new". Where is the new wine-skins willing to be filled and sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise?
We have forgotten our Creator, God... in the days of our youth, who have not yet heard or seen the fullest manifestation of God's Glory Presence within earthen vessels. The Power of God unto salvation for this generation is not ignited through our alliance or reliance upon mere man. Our hope is built on nothing less, than Jesus' Blood and Righteousness.
How eloquently wise have we become within the secret counsels of our words that have outwardly motivated us to do good works only to be seen and heard of men? We have feared man, more than to reverence God and the whole counsel of His Word.
The testimony of Jesus is what will exhort, edify and comfort us. His kingdom message is simply to be filled with HIS righteousness, peace and joy, in the Holy Ghost being moved with compassion for the lost, the sick and the dying.
What greater works will we do to demonstrate His greater love than this, than you would willingly LAY DOWN your life for a friend? Who are His friends within the body of Christ, today? Church growth is a direct result of the WORD OF GOD being PREACHED under the anointing and fire of God's Presence demonstrating the Gospel of His Love.
How simple, yet profound is that?
Flesh and blood cannot reveal the things of the Spirit of God to us. The things of God are spiritually discerned. Our complete reliance is upon the HOLY SPIRIT, as HE WILLS to do of the Father's good pleasure, not ours. He calls, commissions, sends, and covers us, not man. He broods over the face of darkness and chaos and brings forth God's life, not man. We were created in the image of God, not man. The Holy Spirit anoints, appoints and supplies every need.. the "joint" supplies... when I am more intimately in covenant relationship with Him.
How grieved the Holy Spirit must be because we have taken territorial rights away from HIS sovereignty and have set up our own kingdoms and governments of men . The Word of God is no longer discerned and remembered within the church so caught up within the holy war crusades of their own choosing. We have failed to be holy as He is, holy. How can we ever hope to see God in this self righteous place within our hearts, leaning on our own understanding and refusing to acknowledge Him in all our ways?
We have flown our own victory flag within the hearts of men submitted to us, more than to God Himself. We have failed to conquer the battlefield within our own mind casting down vain imaginations and everything that would exalt itself against the knowledge of God. We have worshipped our own creativity, more than God.
We have made covenant alliances with man, more than to keep our solemnly pledged allegiance only to Jesus, Who being made of no reputation, humbled Himself... and became obedient unto death. He died on the cross, for me.
When will we simply take up our cross.... and follow only HIM.... to hear HIS VOICE... and follow NONE OTHER? How grieved is the Holy Spirit in this place when we have so failed to walk humbly before our God upon the highway of HIS HOLINESS.
For this, I cry out to God, for the Kingdom joy that is set before me, for the harvest!
When we look "outside" of our so stained windows within our Church today, what do we see?
Lord, give us eyes to see and a heart to hear what you are saying to the church in this hour of visitation.
Oftentimes, Kathryn Kuhlman would say: "You do not USE the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit uses the vessel completely yielded to Him. It's less of self.... and more of Him."
How arrogant and presumptuous are we to even think that we are the ones who WILL do anything apart from our complete dependency upon the PERSON and work of the Holy Spirit?
Why are we trying to build anything upon any other foundation other than JESUS CHRIST, Himself being the HEAD of the Church, not man?
The church is not built upon the foundation and works of the original twelve apostles. The Acts of the Apostles, the Book of Acts, was to demonstrate the things that JESUS began... both to do... and to teach.... in the power and anointing of the Holy Spirit.
Today, we are more filled with seeker sensitive knowledge exemplifying the strategic planning conference agendas of man, and have forgotten our Creator, God. We have become so full of our own plans, purposes and pursuits: to contemplate "our" next move of God, to set apart and commission laborers within our "own mission" fields, to over compensate ourselves by voting increased pay raises and then wonder why we have to place a heavy "tax" burden upon the people of God, because we want more.
We wonder why there is not enough resources to do the work of the ministry, when we have become more self-reliant upon our ministry, than to become more dependent upon God Himself. We have been harvested and gathered together within the Vineyard of the Lord, while resting beneath the brightness of the noonday, becoming transformed and conformed into the image of His dear Son. We were never meant to be processed and then self preserved within the church storehouses filled with the "atrophied" merits of their own grace. We have fallen short of God's Glory and Grace.
We are zealously overfed with pride within our own accomplishments, always attempting to give birth to something "new". Where is the new wine-skins willing to be filled and sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise?
We have forgotten our Creator, God... in the days of our youth, who have not yet heard or seen the fullest manifestation of God's Glory Presence within earthen vessels. The Power of God unto salvation for this generation is not ignited through our alliance or reliance upon mere man. Our hope is built on nothing less, than Jesus' Blood and Righteousness.
How eloquently wise have we become within the secret counsels of our words that have outwardly motivated us to do good works only to be seen and heard of men? We have feared man, more than to reverence God and the whole counsel of His Word.
The testimony of Jesus is what will exhort, edify and comfort us. His kingdom message is simply to be filled with HIS righteousness, peace and joy, in the Holy Ghost being moved with compassion for the lost, the sick and the dying.
What greater works will we do to demonstrate His greater love than this, than you would willingly LAY DOWN your life for a friend? Who are His friends within the body of Christ, today? Church growth is a direct result of the WORD OF GOD being PREACHED under the anointing and fire of God's Presence demonstrating the Gospel of His Love.
How simple, yet profound is that?
Flesh and blood cannot reveal the things of the Spirit of God to us. The things of God are spiritually discerned. Our complete reliance is upon the HOLY SPIRIT, as HE WILLS to do of the Father's good pleasure, not ours. He calls, commissions, sends, and covers us, not man. He broods over the face of darkness and chaos and brings forth God's life, not man. We were created in the image of God, not man. The Holy Spirit anoints, appoints and supplies every need.. the "joint" supplies... when I am more intimately in covenant relationship with Him.
How grieved the Holy Spirit must be because we have taken territorial rights away from HIS sovereignty and have set up our own kingdoms and governments of men . The Word of God is no longer discerned and remembered within the church so caught up within the holy war crusades of their own choosing. We have failed to be holy as He is, holy. How can we ever hope to see God in this self righteous place within our hearts, leaning on our own understanding and refusing to acknowledge Him in all our ways?
We have flown our own victory flag within the hearts of men submitted to us, more than to God Himself. We have failed to conquer the battlefield within our own mind casting down vain imaginations and everything that would exalt itself against the knowledge of God. We have worshipped our own creativity, more than God.
We have made covenant alliances with man, more than to keep our solemnly pledged allegiance only to Jesus, Who being made of no reputation, humbled Himself... and became obedient unto death. He died on the cross, for me.
When will we simply take up our cross.... and follow only HIM.... to hear HIS VOICE... and follow NONE OTHER? How grieved is the Holy Spirit in this place when we have so failed to walk humbly before our God upon the highway of HIS HOLINESS.
For this, I cry out to God, for the Kingdom joy that is set before me, for the harvest!
When we look "outside" of our so stained windows within our Church today, what do we see?
Lord, give us eyes to see and a heart to hear what you are saying to the church in this hour of visitation.
Nice sermon, California Girl but is it on topic? Also, did you not read Ephesians 2:20?
Actually, this post perhaps demonstrates the problem. There are many people out there who don't want to submit to leadership, even fatherly leadership. They just want Jesus to be their leader. That sounds quite cool, especially in a postmodern age. But it isn't biblical. The Lakeland matter has brought a lot of rebellion to the surface, with things being said about some leaders that is frankly disgusting.
We have a lot of armchair theolgians and experts, it seems. And armchair prophets and preachers. My advice is: if you haven't been in the trenches, don't talk about what makes a good soldier.
Actually, this post perhaps demonstrates the problem. There are many people out there who don't want to submit to leadership, even fatherly leadership. They just want Jesus to be their leader. That sounds quite cool, especially in a postmodern age. But it isn't biblical. The Lakeland matter has brought a lot of rebellion to the surface, with things being said about some leaders that is frankly disgusting.
We have a lot of armchair theolgians and experts, it seems. And armchair prophets and preachers. My advice is: if you haven't been in the trenches, don't talk about what makes a good soldier.
# posted by : 5:13 AM
: 5:13 AM
The bigger they are, the harder they fall. thank you Lee Brady for taking a cautious approach to endorsing this "revival." You were not the only one who sensed something just wasn't quite right. Does a minister have to be perfect? No, but the bar should be cleared at a much higher height than this, in my opinion. this make me ashamed to be called a charismatic...
# posted by : 5:17 PM
: 5:17 PM
The bigger they are, the harder they fall. thank you Lee Brady for taking a cautious approach to endorsing this "revival." You were not the only one who sensed something just wasn't quite right. Does a minister have to be perfect? No, but the bar should be cleared at a much higher height than this, in my opinion. this make me ashamed to be called a charismatic...
# posted by : 5:18 PM
: 5:18 PM
The Bible says we are not to call anyone father. A little bit of leaven spoils the whole lot. These "fathers" are all accountable for the deceit and ungodly behaviour of the whole event and that includes God TV. They have all mocked my God.They should all repent in public.
# posted by : 5:18 PM
: 5:18 PM
OK, let's say that I personally cannot possibly believe that everyone is talking about the wrong problem!
No one yet has to say anything about the way this individual has treated the Lord of glory by the way he has grossly misrepresenting Him. Oh sorry, I should say that "the opposers did that."
I'm not talking about whether the revival was real or not. I don't give a hoot about the revival because God is gracious enough to work through an ass (Nu 22:23 KJV) if He chooses to.
The problem was never Tom's marital issues because if he treated his wife the way he treated the body of Christ, let's be clear that that this individual had no idea what the LORD is really all about or who He really is.
God's word tell us that He is love (1 John 4:8). LOVE DOES NOT HIT HIS CHILDREN, NOR DOES HE SLAM THEM DOWN. God is not into abusing His bride. He is the Gentleman of the universe and the LOVER of His bride, the church.
The problem I have is with the "fathers" who are not stepping forward to defend the honor and the integrity of God's heart!
Who speaks for the Lord today? Everyone seems to be concerned about the wrong problem. Tom is not the problem nor is his marriage.
We are the problem because we allowed him to step up to the pulpit and insult our Lord Jesus with his "karate style sort... of ministry."
His personal problems are peanuts compared to the way he has kicked around the Lord of grace and beauty.
If we don't know really know the heart of God, let's stop pretending we do and find out who He really is while we bend our knees and ask Him to forgive us for thinking He is a brute.
Joseph Luna., Bay Shore, NY
No one yet has to say anything about the way this individual has treated the Lord of glory by the way he has grossly misrepresenting Him. Oh sorry, I should say that "the opposers did that."
I'm not talking about whether the revival was real or not. I don't give a hoot about the revival because God is gracious enough to work through an ass (Nu 22:23 KJV) if He chooses to.
The problem was never Tom's marital issues because if he treated his wife the way he treated the body of Christ, let's be clear that that this individual had no idea what the LORD is really all about or who He really is.
God's word tell us that He is love (1 John 4:8). LOVE DOES NOT HIT HIS CHILDREN, NOR DOES HE SLAM THEM DOWN. God is not into abusing His bride. He is the Gentleman of the universe and the LOVER of His bride, the church.
The problem I have is with the "fathers" who are not stepping forward to defend the honor and the integrity of God's heart!
Who speaks for the Lord today? Everyone seems to be concerned about the wrong problem. Tom is not the problem nor is his marriage.
We are the problem because we allowed him to step up to the pulpit and insult our Lord Jesus with his "karate style sort... of ministry."
His personal problems are peanuts compared to the way he has kicked around the Lord of grace and beauty.
If we don't know really know the heart of God, let's stop pretending we do and find out who He really is while we bend our knees and ask Him to forgive us for thinking He is a brute.
Joseph Luna., Bay Shore, NY
My response may draw some fire but it's what I believe so forgive me.
I wonder if it may have been somewhat easier to succumb to the lure of a "fresh" relationship with a "new" woman after many of Christs very church in which the outpouring was released, assaulted Todd Globally? How abouth the secular media?
We never want to make an excuse for our behaviors but every one of our behaviors, both those that bring strength and those that weaken, come from seeds and they have root systems.
This issue we can see from some of the "apostolic covering" is not a new issue but one that had time to gain deeper and stronger roots or holds in Todds life. It may be rooted in a bloodline (generational) curse.
I have from day one felt compelled to stand "with" Todd as I watched the media,the church and whoever else, publicly accost a struggling passionate man that in most ways was doing the best he knew how. I do not know Todd but my heart goes out to him.
I have seen even some of those that stood on the platform to publicly "cover" Todd do a certain retreat and or distancing from the very person they participated in "covering." Or was it just the event they were "attending."
How is that looked upon by God I wonder? If you endorse something endorse it, if not don't.
Pretty simple actually.
Bill Johnson made a very compelling video that I used in my effort to stand by a struggling brother in which he wept over having spent time with Todd in differing settings.
And then he made a very gray video about where he stood all along. Peter Wagner had issues with the outpouring but if I remember right Peter had a few things to say that evening. Once again call what you see as you see it or not at all.
I'm sorry but that bothered me, that is not acting like a family.
I now have the honor of being a pastor in Jesus' amazing church but I have from day one struggled in the area of being able to freely trust those that are called my peers. We lambaste so freely yet we ourselves all have secret struggles at times and every now and then one of us will unfortunately fall in battle.
Whom which we are to rally too, not worry about whether or not we will be judged unworthy because of our love for them.
Who knows what goes on behind closed doors in our homes. Scary statement to many of us, except of course to those few that never look or act ungodly in the unfortunate vicinity of those closest, our family. I have and will infortunately have times in my life where I could have shone a little bit brighter (or alot).
Sometimes that will be at home. And to be perfectly honest my marriage has been at times a struggle and I have at times wished I had a way out. Shoot we're human folks.
What would Jesus do? He knew Judas' heart and He knows ours. God bless Todd for admitting that with everything the way it is right now, that he should step away from ministry while he sorts it out. God forbid that we would be so pitiful in our prayer life that we would refuse to pray him back into the ministry.
Our ministry is not that thing that carries a title that represents that which we get to do.
Our ministry is a reflection of that which has been done "IN US."
Imagine a Todd Bentley in a place of healing and wholeness back in line and on fire.
To all his critics attack me if you will you sinless saints, but your job is not to assault anything but the dominion of darkness; and to allow Jesus through His leaders to do their best to steer Todd through his time of repentance and healing.
This needs to come to a close so that Todd can experience this. So Pray and if it "appalled" you so much that you were "damaged" by Todd and Shonnas personal problems, find a way to forgive Todd and Shonna and any that stood by them.
Todd you need a couple of people that will publicly whip your tail if you start to get weird or out of line. I told my ministry partners that if I start getting weird drag me down an alley and help me "see the light." I offer that suggestion to you as we both come from similar backgrounds.
Sometimes all unbridled passion needs is a bridle. It would seem that one of the very things that you're known for Todd, passion, was an access point or doorway for the enemy. You need a strong and confident accountability covering, which one would have thought that whole coutless "covering of apostles" would have brought to the table.
But in my opinion Todd they need to be people that you will listen to because they have earned your ear, more than appointed themselves your apostles, as they may run and or you may not listen.
Just an opinion and Todd I hope you read it and see that some of us are pulling for you and I hope some of it helps somebody.
Brad Herman
Altared Ministries
I wonder if it may have been somewhat easier to succumb to the lure of a "fresh" relationship with a "new" woman after many of Christs very church in which the outpouring was released, assaulted Todd Globally? How abouth the secular media?
We never want to make an excuse for our behaviors but every one of our behaviors, both those that bring strength and those that weaken, come from seeds and they have root systems.
This issue we can see from some of the "apostolic covering" is not a new issue but one that had time to gain deeper and stronger roots or holds in Todds life. It may be rooted in a bloodline (generational) curse.
I have from day one felt compelled to stand "with" Todd as I watched the media,the church and whoever else, publicly accost a struggling passionate man that in most ways was doing the best he knew how. I do not know Todd but my heart goes out to him.
I have seen even some of those that stood on the platform to publicly "cover" Todd do a certain retreat and or distancing from the very person they participated in "covering." Or was it just the event they were "attending."
How is that looked upon by God I wonder? If you endorse something endorse it, if not don't.
Pretty simple actually.
Bill Johnson made a very compelling video that I used in my effort to stand by a struggling brother in which he wept over having spent time with Todd in differing settings.
And then he made a very gray video about where he stood all along. Peter Wagner had issues with the outpouring but if I remember right Peter had a few things to say that evening. Once again call what you see as you see it or not at all.
I'm sorry but that bothered me, that is not acting like a family.
I now have the honor of being a pastor in Jesus' amazing church but I have from day one struggled in the area of being able to freely trust those that are called my peers. We lambaste so freely yet we ourselves all have secret struggles at times and every now and then one of us will unfortunately fall in battle.
Whom which we are to rally too, not worry about whether or not we will be judged unworthy because of our love for them.
Who knows what goes on behind closed doors in our homes. Scary statement to many of us, except of course to those few that never look or act ungodly in the unfortunate vicinity of those closest, our family. I have and will infortunately have times in my life where I could have shone a little bit brighter (or alot).
Sometimes that will be at home. And to be perfectly honest my marriage has been at times a struggle and I have at times wished I had a way out. Shoot we're human folks.
What would Jesus do? He knew Judas' heart and He knows ours. God bless Todd for admitting that with everything the way it is right now, that he should step away from ministry while he sorts it out. God forbid that we would be so pitiful in our prayer life that we would refuse to pray him back into the ministry.
Our ministry is not that thing that carries a title that represents that which we get to do.
Our ministry is a reflection of that which has been done "IN US."
Imagine a Todd Bentley in a place of healing and wholeness back in line and on fire.
To all his critics attack me if you will you sinless saints, but your job is not to assault anything but the dominion of darkness; and to allow Jesus through His leaders to do their best to steer Todd through his time of repentance and healing.
This needs to come to a close so that Todd can experience this. So Pray and if it "appalled" you so much that you were "damaged" by Todd and Shonnas personal problems, find a way to forgive Todd and Shonna and any that stood by them.
Todd you need a couple of people that will publicly whip your tail if you start to get weird or out of line. I told my ministry partners that if I start getting weird drag me down an alley and help me "see the light." I offer that suggestion to you as we both come from similar backgrounds.
Sometimes all unbridled passion needs is a bridle. It would seem that one of the very things that you're known for Todd, passion, was an access point or doorway for the enemy. You need a strong and confident accountability covering, which one would have thought that whole coutless "covering of apostles" would have brought to the table.
But in my opinion Todd they need to be people that you will listen to because they have earned your ear, more than appointed themselves your apostles, as they may run and or you may not listen.
Just an opinion and Todd I hope you read it and see that some of us are pulling for you and I hope some of it helps somebody.
Brad Herman
Altared Ministries
Todd would probably benefit from an older couple covering him and his family - at all times. He told his family background himself, and it did not sound nurturing or loving. An older couple, non-pastor, but firmly grounded in the Word, could provide him the mature guidance, love, and support that he needs. I am praying that he will find them soon.
# posted by : 7:14 PM
: 7:14 PM
I have no respect for the comments made by these men, because they are members of the International Coalition of Apostles created by Peter Wagner and Bill Hamon, as is Grady and Strang. Ask for some outside opinions. They all promote the gold dust, falling feathers, falling diamonds and gemstones and ungodly calling on angels. This is sad, sad. I have left the Charismatic church recently because I can't take the lies and double talk any longer!
Double speak again by Charisma. If you read this article, then read RT Kendall's article, again it's double speak. RT flat out says this "revival" was not of God. I would believe RT over Bill-falling feathers-Johnson, and John-barking dogs-Arnott.
To those of you who have forgotten, Jesus Christ was FULLY GOD and FULLY MAN...like unto the same passions as we are, yet He knew no sin. Unfortunately, in the 35, nearly 36 years I have been steeped in, exposed to, manipulated by and entangled with the Pentecostal/Charismatic side of Christianity, I have not yet met Christs' equal in the area of SINLESSNESS.
The majority of the critics of this man (who, I might add I have never heard speak, never watched on GOD TV or anywhere else, and do not know) are so puffed up with spiritual pride they suck the air right outta the room! Do you not worry about tripping up yourselves? Do you not think about the fact that if this were YOUR son or YOUR daughter how you would want the public to keep their mouths off of them? What if it was YOU and YOUR wife or husband blew it big time in front of your congregation? What if it's your son who has to tell you he's gotten some girl in the church pregnant? What if it's your daughter who stands in the prayer meeting and confesses she's been involved in a lesbian relationship? What are you going to do then? Look, I'm not saying we turn a blind eye to sin. Sin, faults, failures, whatever lovely Christianese tag you want to hang on it, has to be confronted, dealt with and repented of by whomever is embroiled in it. THAT'S BIBLICAL. Remember The Bible? The book we are all supposed to be LIVING BY? Chewing this man to pieces because you might somehow be besmirched by his failings accomplishes nothing except a reason for the world to say, "Oh, yeah. They're united for a cause..." Jesus prayed, "Father, make them one, even as you and I are one..." Church, you are so divided right now, you're leaving gaps and breaches for the Enemy to invade and you're too busy trying to make yourselves look perfect and HOLY to notice. The world is dying. People are hurting and WE are supposed to have the answers. You know what? I'm not glad Todd fell on his face. I am not. I never want to see something like this happen. But there is hope in this for someone...not inside the church walls...no, people who struggle with issues like Todd's really aren't welcome within the churches' walls. There is hope in this for someone who has been on the bottom. When Todd comes back from this (and I believe and am praying he will, because HE IS MY BROTHER!) those people will say, he came back, he survived to tell the tale. There is hope for me. So, to all the Armchair Deacons and to the Perfectly Innocent Believers Brigade...be quiet, lest the thing you see your brother fall into sucks you in, too...wait didn't the Apostle Paul say that too? Hmmmmm...
The majority of the critics of this man (who, I might add I have never heard speak, never watched on GOD TV or anywhere else, and do not know) are so puffed up with spiritual pride they suck the air right outta the room! Do you not worry about tripping up yourselves? Do you not think about the fact that if this were YOUR son or YOUR daughter how you would want the public to keep their mouths off of them? What if it was YOU and YOUR wife or husband blew it big time in front of your congregation? What if it's your son who has to tell you he's gotten some girl in the church pregnant? What if it's your daughter who stands in the prayer meeting and confesses she's been involved in a lesbian relationship? What are you going to do then? Look, I'm not saying we turn a blind eye to sin. Sin, faults, failures, whatever lovely Christianese tag you want to hang on it, has to be confronted, dealt with and repented of by whomever is embroiled in it. THAT'S BIBLICAL. Remember The Bible? The book we are all supposed to be LIVING BY? Chewing this man to pieces because you might somehow be besmirched by his failings accomplishes nothing except a reason for the world to say, "Oh, yeah. They're united for a cause..." Jesus prayed, "Father, make them one, even as you and I are one..." Church, you are so divided right now, you're leaving gaps and breaches for the Enemy to invade and you're too busy trying to make yourselves look perfect and HOLY to notice. The world is dying. People are hurting and WE are supposed to have the answers. You know what? I'm not glad Todd fell on his face. I am not. I never want to see something like this happen. But there is hope in this for someone...not inside the church walls...no, people who struggle with issues like Todd's really aren't welcome within the churches' walls. There is hope in this for someone who has been on the bottom. When Todd comes back from this (and I believe and am praying he will, because HE IS MY BROTHER!) those people will say, he came back, he survived to tell the tale. There is hope for me. So, to all the Armchair Deacons and to the Perfectly Innocent Believers Brigade...be quiet, lest the thing you see your brother fall into sucks you in, too...wait didn't the Apostle Paul say that too? Hmmmmm...
To those of you who have forgotten, Jesus Christ was FULLY GOD and FULLY MAN...like unto the same passions as we are, yet He knew no sin. Unfortunately, in the 35, nearly 36 years I have been steeped in, exposed to, manipulated by and entangled with the Pentecostal/Charismatic side of Christianity, I have not yet met Christs' equal in the area of SINLESSNESS.
The majority of the critics of this man (who, I might add I have never heard speak, never watched on GOD TV or anywhere else, and do not know) are so puffed up with spiritual pride they suck the air right outta the room! Do you not worry about tripping up yourselves? Do you not think about the fact that if this were YOUR son or YOUR daughter how you would want the public to keep their mouths off of them? What if it was YOU and YOUR wife or husband blew it big time in front of your congregation? What if it's your son who has to tell you he's gotten some girl in the church pregnant? What if it's your daughter who stands in the prayer meeting and confesses she's been involved in a lesbian relationship? What are you going to do then? Look, I'm not saying we turn a blind eye to sin. Sin, faults, failures, whatever lovely Christianese tag you want to hang on it, has to be confronted, dealt with and repented of by whomever is embroiled in it. THAT'S BIBLICAL. Remember The Bible? The book we are all supposed to be LIVING BY? Chewing this man to pieces because you might somehow be besmirched by his failings accomplishes nothing except a reason for the world to say, "Oh, yeah. They're united for a cause..." Jesus prayed, "Father, make them one, even as you and I are one..." Church, you are so divided right now, you're leaving gaps and breaches for the Enemy to invade and you're too busy trying to make yourselves look perfect and HOLY to notice. The world is dying. People are hurting and WE are supposed to have the answers. You know what? I'm not glad Todd fell on his face. I am not. I never want to see something like this happen. But there is hope in this for someone...not inside the church walls...no, people who struggle with issues like Todd's really aren't welcome within the churches' walls. There is hope in this for someone who has been on the bottom. When Todd comes back from this (and I believe and am praying he will, because HE IS MY BROTHER!) those people will say, he came back, he survived to tell the tale. There is hope for me. So, to all the Armchair Deacons and to the Perfectly Innocent Believers Brigade...be quiet, lest the thing you see your brother fall into sucks you in, too...wait didn't the Apostle Paul say that too? Hmmmmm...
The majority of the critics of this man (who, I might add I have never heard speak, never watched on GOD TV or anywhere else, and do not know) are so puffed up with spiritual pride they suck the air right outta the room! Do you not worry about tripping up yourselves? Do you not think about the fact that if this were YOUR son or YOUR daughter how you would want the public to keep their mouths off of them? What if it was YOU and YOUR wife or husband blew it big time in front of your congregation? What if it's your son who has to tell you he's gotten some girl in the church pregnant? What if it's your daughter who stands in the prayer meeting and confesses she's been involved in a lesbian relationship? What are you going to do then? Look, I'm not saying we turn a blind eye to sin. Sin, faults, failures, whatever lovely Christianese tag you want to hang on it, has to be confronted, dealt with and repented of by whomever is embroiled in it. THAT'S BIBLICAL. Remember The Bible? The book we are all supposed to be LIVING BY? Chewing this man to pieces because you might somehow be besmirched by his failings accomplishes nothing except a reason for the world to say, "Oh, yeah. They're united for a cause..." Jesus prayed, "Father, make them one, even as you and I are one..." Church, you are so divided right now, you're leaving gaps and breaches for the Enemy to invade and you're too busy trying to make yourselves look perfect and HOLY to notice. The world is dying. People are hurting and WE are supposed to have the answers. You know what? I'm not glad Todd fell on his face. I am not. I never want to see something like this happen. But there is hope in this for someone...not inside the church walls...no, people who struggle with issues like Todd's really aren't welcome within the churches' walls. There is hope in this for someone who has been on the bottom. When Todd comes back from this (and I believe and am praying he will, because HE IS MY BROTHER!) those people will say, he came back, he survived to tell the tale. There is hope for me. So, to all the Armchair Deacons and to the Perfectly Innocent Believers Brigade...be quiet, lest the thing you see your brother fall into sucks you in, too...wait didn't the Apostle Paul say that too? Hmmmmm...
I forgive Todd, I pray for him, but if we don't learn from this, we're really blind. The revival in Acts was a word based revival. The word of God spread. Paul's extended campaigns were spent teaching God's word. If third heaven visions telling a preacher to not preach Jesus, but emphasize angels instead don't raise any red flags....duhhhhh.
Pastor Jeff Burke
Pastor Jeff Burke
# posted by : 10:52 PM
: 10:52 PM
A word to those who are grieved and hurt through all this mess. You watched and you believed and you may have even been healed at the Lakeland meetings. You are wondering..."how could I have been deceived? The Truth is.. you were drawn by God..you had a hungry heart and God loves hungry hearts. As a matter of fact God is drawn to hungry hearts ...like a magnet.
I talked to several people who went to Lakeland and everyone of them said, "they saw a huge hunger for God in the people." Their comments were not about Todd...they were about how everyone was ministering to each other. How people were getting healed and encouraged and touched by God in hallways, in the bathrooms. It's so amazing how God shows up in spite of everything. So, for those of you who were touched by God by watching TV or in the meetings...hang on to it! That's precious and grow in it...don't let go of that hunger.
The "Body of Christ" is in great need of deliverance, healing, and transformation. In order for that to take place the "yuk" must be exposed. I believe what Dutch sheets said in his Letter to the "Church"... really was from God. God has used him to begin the process of deliverance...he's exposing the sin in "THE BODY" especially in leaders. The fact that he asked for forgivenss...that was powerful. The flood gates are open. This is the shift, this is the shaking we've all been hearing about...this is the tidal wave so many have seen in dreams. It's going throughout the world. If we come clean before the Lord we will ride it out...if not we'll go under.
Todd Bentley is a type of what's in the Body of Christ. How many in the "Body" are living in immorality, deceit, and family infidelity?
Get ready...there's more to come and many more will be exposed. Intercessors all over the world are praying for exposure. God is answering that prayer!
Oh God, give us all a Holy dose of the Fear of God! Bring us all into repentance!
I talked to several people who went to Lakeland and everyone of them said, "they saw a huge hunger for God in the people." Their comments were not about Todd...they were about how everyone was ministering to each other. How people were getting healed and encouraged and touched by God in hallways, in the bathrooms. It's so amazing how God shows up in spite of everything. So, for those of you who were touched by God by watching TV or in the meetings...hang on to it! That's precious and grow in it...don't let go of that hunger.
The "Body of Christ" is in great need of deliverance, healing, and transformation. In order for that to take place the "yuk" must be exposed. I believe what Dutch sheets said in his Letter to the "Church"... really was from God. God has used him to begin the process of deliverance...he's exposing the sin in "THE BODY" especially in leaders. The fact that he asked for forgivenss...that was powerful. The flood gates are open. This is the shift, this is the shaking we've all been hearing about...this is the tidal wave so many have seen in dreams. It's going throughout the world. If we come clean before the Lord we will ride it out...if not we'll go under.
Todd Bentley is a type of what's in the Body of Christ. How many in the "Body" are living in immorality, deceit, and family infidelity?
Get ready...there's more to come and many more will be exposed. Intercessors all over the world are praying for exposure. God is answering that prayer!
Oh God, give us all a Holy dose of the Fear of God! Bring us all into repentance!
# posted by : 12:45 AM
: 12:45 AM
What you see happening here and why is called the apostasy - the great falling away. It is a falling away from the truth of the word of God. These so-called self appointed apostles/leaders/fathers that are being referred to create their own bible out of their own interpretations of scripture building their own little pet doctrines of demons and and then teach them to the body of Christ. Since the body of Christ has little or no word knowledge they fall into the trap and get deceived. The original deception comes from listening to Satan who preys on teachers who insist on interpreting scripture and perverting it to make it say what they want it to say. The truth does not need to be interpreted. It is as plain as day to anyone who is totally yielded to the Holy Spirit.
If believers would put in hours per week into studying the word of God, the Holy Spirit would be alive in them and we would not have this happening today. Extra-biblical phenomena at church meetings would not be allowed. Instead, the average believer spends little or no time in the word of God and starts seeking after supernatural phenomena all over the globe because he or she does not have a vibrant relationship with the Holy Spirit. If we are filled up with rivers of living water and the word of God and spend hours praying in the Spirit, signs and wonders will follow us on a regular basis and we won't even be remotely tempted to go seek after them.
This is what we have today - the apostasy fueled by an ignorance of the word of God in the church at large. It is a tragedy of apocalyptic proportions and it will continue right up to the coming of the Lord.
If believers would put in hours per week into studying the word of God, the Holy Spirit would be alive in them and we would not have this happening today. Extra-biblical phenomena at church meetings would not be allowed. Instead, the average believer spends little or no time in the word of God and starts seeking after supernatural phenomena all over the globe because he or she does not have a vibrant relationship with the Holy Spirit. If we are filled up with rivers of living water and the word of God and spend hours praying in the Spirit, signs and wonders will follow us on a regular basis and we won't even be remotely tempted to go seek after them.
This is what we have today - the apostasy fueled by an ignorance of the word of God in the church at large. It is a tragedy of apocalyptic proportions and it will continue right up to the coming of the Lord.
# posted by : 7:34 AM
: 7:34 AM
Like many I watched the Lakeland Outpouring and felt only the Presence of the Lord in the meetings. I have watched many waves of the Lord over the years and heard all the reasons they weren't of God, yet they survived. Who can stop the move of God? Surely we cannot. We need to quit setting ministers on a pedestal like they are God and realize they are just like us and fail just as we do. Through all this I see Jesus displayed much more in the ministries that have mercy than those that have critical attitudes. Isn't it time we walk in love towards our brothers and sisters in the Lord.
Meg
Meg
# posted by : 10:29 AM
: 10:29 AM
The clearest way you can discern whether someone is of the Lord or not is to hear the person preach the word on a regular basis. The person in the pulpit knows that very well. If you are skilled in the scriptures, you will pick this up immediately and clearly discern what is going on in a meeting.
Haven't you noticed that when the "false" manifests, that the word of God is never preached in any of the meetings? Why? Because they do not want you to be able to discern THEM and their false anointing. This is what happened at Toronto and at Lakeland.
So here is a good test: When the word of God is not preached at a meeting, leave the place and shake the dust off of your feet. Somebody is covering something up - THEM!
They do not want you to know who or what they are - real or false, and that is precisely why they do not preach the word of God. You may have trouble believing this, but this is deliberate. It is not an accident, and the person running these types of meetings is a deceiver. He is deceived, and is manifesting deception to whomever might be listening.
Beware of ministers who do not preach and exalt the word of God continuously.
Haven't you noticed that when the "false" manifests, that the word of God is never preached in any of the meetings? Why? Because they do not want you to be able to discern THEM and their false anointing. This is what happened at Toronto and at Lakeland.
So here is a good test: When the word of God is not preached at a meeting, leave the place and shake the dust off of your feet. Somebody is covering something up - THEM!
They do not want you to know who or what they are - real or false, and that is precisely why they do not preach the word of God. You may have trouble believing this, but this is deliberate. It is not an accident, and the person running these types of meetings is a deceiver. He is deceived, and is manifesting deception to whomever might be listening.
Beware of ministers who do not preach and exalt the word of God continuously.
# posted by : 7:03 PM
: 7:03 PM
I feel sorry for Shonnah Bentley who was paraded out at the Lakeland Outpouring while her husband was cheating on her and being a drunk. And he had been doing this for three years and many knew about it including Bill Johnson and John Arnott!
It obvious to me and many others that the men who chose to try to silence the rightful critics of Todd Bentley need to repent, particularly Bill Johnson and John Arnott, who it seems knew of the issues and purposely overlooked them.
It obvious to me and many others that the men who chose to try to silence the rightful critics of Todd Bentley need to repent, particularly Bill Johnson and John Arnott, who it seems knew of the issues and purposely overlooked them.
# posted by : 8:23 PM
: 8:23 PM
Yes, our first emotions is to feel disappointment, but let us remember that the higher you are in leadership the easier it is to be a target for the enemy. Thus our cultivated tendencies of our youth lay hidden, then at the right time the enemy brings about opportunities, about things we thought were overcome! Jesus told us how to deal with each other when we fall, finally none of us are free to judge and say our sins aren't as bad as Todd or some other person. They aren't that bad because no one knows about them! Mercy and restoration is the manner to deal with this. We're all sinners, fallen short...
John-Claude from OZ.
John-Claude from OZ.
# posted by : 12:09 AM
: 12:09 AM
Let's see:"lack of discipline, immorality, deceit and family infidelity." Huh- sounds like King David! And of everything I've heard so far it sounds like Todd Bentley was quick to confess and repent-also like King David. He also immediately stepped down from ministry and is seeking counseling and restoration. God said David was a man after His own heart, not because he was perfect, but because he was quick to repent. Let's not forget the lesson in the Bible where Jesus pointed out that of the two men in the church standing side by side the one who was the worst sinner went away justified in God's eyes(as oppossed to the "perfect christian" in man's eyes)because he recognized he was a sinner and needed God's help."Man looks on the outward appearance but God looks at the heart." I'm not justifying sin here but what I am trying to say is it is a matter of the heart and only God can judge a man's heart. Let's not forget brothers"we fight not against flesh and blood" but against principalities,etc. Todd's sins were gross but let's not forget that anger, gossip,glutteny, hatred, slander, and most of all spiritual pride are all listed right up there in God's eyes as bad sin! I hear Jesus saying,"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone!" Todd is being disiplined now let's forgive him , love him and pray for him.Remember Samson another great leader who fell into immorality. At the end of his life God restored his power one last time.Praise God- "His mercies are new every morning!"
# posted by : 1:29 AM
: 1:29 AM
"And of everything I've heard so far it sounds like Todd Bentley was quick to confess and repent-also like King David"
Hogwash! There is no repentance whatsoever from Todd Bentley or any of their handlers! They are all stalling for time home that somehow this fiasco will just go away!
Peter Wagner obviously has given up on Todd by his statement He has resigned from the ministry he founded, Fresh Fire, so he is no longer a part of that board. It has become clear that he indulged in periodic drunkenness. He has no intention at the moment of reconciling with Shonna, nor does she with him. Their marriage has been torn for years by his emotional attachment with at least one other female whose physical contact went beyond hugging and kissing and holding hands. Enough said-maybe more details will be revealed later-but it was clearly immoral. All of this was skillfully concealed by lying and by swearing close associates who had observed his behavior to secrecy.”
Could somebody please tell me how could John Arnott who knew that Todd Bentley was a drunk , an adulterer and womanizer keep supporting him and even be on the board of fresh fire ministries?
What does it say about John Arnott? He is definitely not a man of integrity but a liar, a thief and a scoundrel
Hogwash! There is no repentance whatsoever from Todd Bentley or any of their handlers! They are all stalling for time home that somehow this fiasco will just go away!
Peter Wagner obviously has given up on Todd by his statement He has resigned from the ministry he founded, Fresh Fire, so he is no longer a part of that board. It has become clear that he indulged in periodic drunkenness. He has no intention at the moment of reconciling with Shonna, nor does she with him. Their marriage has been torn for years by his emotional attachment with at least one other female whose physical contact went beyond hugging and kissing and holding hands. Enough said-maybe more details will be revealed later-but it was clearly immoral. All of this was skillfully concealed by lying and by swearing close associates who had observed his behavior to secrecy.”
Could somebody please tell me how could John Arnott who knew that Todd Bentley was a drunk , an adulterer and womanizer keep supporting him and even be on the board of fresh fire ministries?
What does it say about John Arnott? He is definitely not a man of integrity but a liar, a thief and a scoundrel
# posted by : 2:31 PM
: 2:31 PM
When I read things like this, it gives me chills...and not in a good way. Please, BODY OF CHRIST...stop this insanity! I have spent hours online this week trying to get a true feel for what is going on with us at this time, and it is very clear that you are either for Todd (And Shonnah, and the ministry of reconciliation and the mandate of Christ Jesus to bring a brother back into alignment...) or you have decided to denigrate, malign and drag this man (who is already as down as he can get) through the mud. HOW IN GOD'S NAME CAN YOU JUSTIFY THE LATTER, BELOVED? How can that be BIBLICAL??? I watched Bill Johnson's video yesterday and there was so much compassion and mercy displayed I sat with my heart full of joy. He exhibited humility, certainly sadness over the situation, but also verbally proclaimed his committment to seeing this man and his family through this turmoil. THAT'S BIBLICAL...THAT IS WHAT A FATHER DOES! Not just a natural father, but a spiritual father. Again, I'm going to say this: KEEP YOUR MOUTHS OFF THIS MAN, LEST YOU FALL INTO THE SAME SIN! Does the body no longer take seriously the Word when it admonishes us to behave MERCIFULLY??? It is not up to us to administer punishment on Todd Bentley...that's not our job...though there is a significant portion of believers who wish to see him punished before an open media (we are as bloodthirsty as the world, anymore...) but God is ALWAYS about RECONCILIATION. Will correction and alignment come? If Todd chooses to surrender to it, yes. The choice is his. Let's remember to pray that he makes good choices. Had we been praying fervently for him, rather than tearing him up with our mouths, then this probably would not have happened. I will put this as plainly as I can...SHUT UP. If you cannot pray for him and lift him up to the Father, then KEEP YOUR MOUTHS CLOSED...please Church...don't make yourselves look horrible to the rest of the world. They need to see mercy displayed, and for the majority of us who make up the Body, we need to receive mercy, as well. HELP US GOD!
Article Said
But God has also appointed specific leaders to shepherd an entire movement, and those are the leaders we need to hear from now more than ever. We don't just need a rallying cry or a clarion call, we need heart-to-heart dialogue on what just happened, what it means and where we go from here.
Me:
Who Told you God has appointed these Fathers? I tell you he did not, and I have scripture behind what I say. "you will know them by there fruits" and the fruits they produce are rotten
But God has also appointed specific leaders to shepherd an entire movement, and those are the leaders we need to hear from now more than ever. We don't just need a rallying cry or a clarion call, we need heart-to-heart dialogue on what just happened, what it means and where we go from here.
Me:
Who Told you God has appointed these Fathers? I tell you he did not, and I have scripture behind what I say. "you will know them by there fruits" and the fruits they produce are rotten
How did any of these guys get to be rated as "Fathers"? Whom do the "father"? Most of what has been written (except for Dutch Sheets) is a sad attempt to cover their butts.
A real father knows when to admit a mistake, apologize for it and draws some lessons from the mess that he made or helped make.
When will the charismatic church grow up?
A real father knows when to admit a mistake, apologize for it and draws some lessons from the mess that he made or helped make.
When will the charismatic church grow up?
...I DO NOT SEE ANY REASON WHY WE ALL SHOULD BE MORE CONCERNED ABOUT TOD'S MISTAKES.I BELIEVE WE NEED TO STAND UP AND INTERCEDE FOR HIM RATHER THAN RUNNING A WHOLE LOT'S OF COMMENTARY WHICH IS NOT DONE IN LOVE . GOD DO NOT USE PERFECT MEN FOR THERE IS NOT A SINGLE ONE.IF WE SEARCH OUR HEARTS WE'LL SEE THAT GOD WANTS US TO STAND UP WITH OUR BROTHER AND GET HIM OUT OF IT THROUGH PRAYERS AND SPIRIT FILLED COUNCELIN LOVE WITH GREAT CAUTION. I KNOW OF NOT A BETER WAY THAN THIS SINCE I BELIEVE THE MASTER WANT'S HIM TO FULFILL HIS PURPOSE.YOU AND I WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR EACH PART WE PLAY. THE WORLD IS LOOKING AT US AND THE LORD IS WAITING ON US!
# posted by : 7:35 AM
: 7:35 AM
Todd's mistakes... Is this a joke?
HEB 13:4 Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.
Todd was a unrepentant drunkard, fornicator and adulterer who God judged and brought about his demise
Robert Ricciardelli on 28/08/08 stated
We are praying for Todd, but those who were touched had nothing to do with Todd. We have been journalists on this from the beginning and have interviewed dozens, including staff members and former Fresh Fire staff members. Todd has been an alcoholic for several years, he has had two affairs and wants to marry the current one. He came into Lakeland already in his affair and had been living in a sinful situation for several years. God will not tolerate this, and shame on those who covered this up. This will all be coming out and I hope Todd finally gets people around him that will help him rather than use his platform. If Todd humbles himself and repents, God will use him… That is our prayer….
And Dr. Pat Holliday wrote:
The Word of God tells us to know those that labor among us. We are to know their character and lifestyles. Todd Bentley preached many false doctrines and did many bizarre things in Lakeland. Many were blinded to his insane ministry. WE NOW KNOW FOR 100% CERTAIN that Todd was living with another woman, drunk most nights, and any sincere Bible knowledge should have deeply concerned people about his heretical doctrines. However, when he confessed his affair with another woman and applied for divorce, he was rejected by all those who endorsed him and he became exposed as a liar. Church leadership rejected his ministry and called him to repentance. Some his peers say that they are ministering to him now and claim that he has repented but we have not heard a word from his lips. Mostly the entire churches AROUND THE world have rejected Bentley because of his sinful lifestyle of womanizing and drinking and rightly so. Pat Holliday http://www.scribd.com/doc/5200686/TODD-BENTLEY-MATTHEW-STEPHENS-Stephen-Bening-False-PROPHETS-ASK-GOD-TO-KILL-PAT-HOLLIDAY-
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HEB 13:4 Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.
Todd was a unrepentant drunkard, fornicator and adulterer who God judged and brought about his demise
Robert Ricciardelli on 28/08/08 stated
We are praying for Todd, but those who were touched had nothing to do with Todd. We have been journalists on this from the beginning and have interviewed dozens, including staff members and former Fresh Fire staff members. Todd has been an alcoholic for several years, he has had two affairs and wants to marry the current one. He came into Lakeland already in his affair and had been living in a sinful situation for several years. God will not tolerate this, and shame on those who covered this up. This will all be coming out and I hope Todd finally gets people around him that will help him rather than use his platform. If Todd humbles himself and repents, God will use him… That is our prayer….
And Dr. Pat Holliday wrote:
The Word of God tells us to know those that labor among us. We are to know their character and lifestyles. Todd Bentley preached many false doctrines and did many bizarre things in Lakeland. Many were blinded to his insane ministry. WE NOW KNOW FOR 100% CERTAIN that Todd was living with another woman, drunk most nights, and any sincere Bible knowledge should have deeply concerned people about his heretical doctrines. However, when he confessed his affair with another woman and applied for divorce, he was rejected by all those who endorsed him and he became exposed as a liar. Church leadership rejected his ministry and called him to repentance. Some his peers say that they are ministering to him now and claim that he has repented but we have not heard a word from his lips. Mostly the entire churches AROUND THE world have rejected Bentley because of his sinful lifestyle of womanizing and drinking and rightly so. Pat Holliday http://www.scribd.com/doc/5200686/TODD-BENTLEY-MATTHEW-STEPHENS-Stephen-Bening-False-PROPHETS-ASK-GOD-TO-KILL-PAT-HOLLIDAY-
# posted by : 4:10 PM
: 4:10 PMLinks to this post:
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