Tuesday, May 22, 2007
Guest Commentary: Preachers and Polygraphs
The letter you are about to read may make you cheer--or it may sound foolish. In either case, we're offering you a chance to participate in interactive journalism: read the letter, post your most well-thought-out response on our blog and look for your name and response in print in a future issue of Ministry Today. Keep in mind, posts of 100 words or fewer will be more likely to be considered for publication. David Epps is the founding pastor of Christ the King Charismatic Episcopal Church in Sharpsburg, Ga. Without further chatter, here's his letter:
In Ministry Today’s story on the aftermath of the Ted Haggard scandal, (“What We Lost,” Jan./Feb.) Colorado sex therapist Doug Weiss recommended that pastors submit to annual polygraph tests to prove they are not in immorality. If that’s not the dumbest, most ill-conceived, hair-brained idea I’ve ever heard, then it has to rank somewhere near the very top.
Let me say this up front—I am a sinner. I wish I could tell you that I have overcome the “sins that so easily beset” me, but I have not. I did give up soft drinks a few years ago, and I don’t swear like I did when I was a young Marine, but in the really tough things that normal people struggle with, I am still in the fight.
Do I covet? Yes, once in a while. I don’t want another man’s wife, but there are a number of pastors whose buildings I lust after. Have I ever murdered? Not really, but if thoughts could kill, there would have been a few times.
Used the Lord’s name in vain? Did that. Dishonored parents? Did that, too. Have I loved God with all my mind, heart, soul, and strength? Sadly, no. Am I walking in unforgiveness? Not to my knowledge, but there were years when I did.
I have been in the presence of truly godly and holy people. I have been in the presence of those who pretend to be. I am somewhere in between. If I took a polygraph to prove to someone that I was without sin, then it would only prove what I, and those who know me well, already know—I need of mercy.
In my faith tradition, we do not use a polygraph to uncover hidden sin. What we do have is an ancient rite called “confession.” In the confessional, with the assurance of absolute confidentially, I am able to confront those dark areas in my life that I hide from others. In that place of safety, I am held accountable and given the counsel and direction that enables me to rise from my fallen place.
When the people in my congregation, or other priests and deacons, come to me in the confessional, they are not coming to a man with a polygraph ready to record and reveal their sins for the entire world to see. They come to a man who is a fellow struggler, to a person whose nature is also fallen, and to one who understands that they are sinners. You see, it takes one to know one.
And there in the hushed quietness of the moment, sometimes punctuated with tears and sobs, the two sinners seek a holy God and brokenly confess sins, receive help and rise from the wreckage of the moment to begin anew in this relationship with the One who is not counting our sins against us.
I cannot be the one to throw stones at the fallen pastor whose sins were so publicly made known. I cannot be the one to despise him or to judge him. I am too flawed, too fallible, too “human.” I pray that God will give him and his family the thing that I, myself, need most—mercy. And I will ask that those who find me flawed beyond their liking and approval simply pray for me, a sinner.
David Epps
Founding Pastor, Christ the King
Sharpsburg, Ga.
In Ministry Today’s story on the aftermath of the Ted Haggard scandal, (“What We Lost,” Jan./Feb.) Colorado sex therapist Doug Weiss recommended that pastors submit to annual polygraph tests to prove they are not in immorality. If that’s not the dumbest, most ill-conceived, hair-brained idea I’ve ever heard, then it has to rank somewhere near the very top.
Let me say this up front—I am a sinner. I wish I could tell you that I have overcome the “sins that so easily beset” me, but I have not. I did give up soft drinks a few years ago, and I don’t swear like I did when I was a young Marine, but in the really tough things that normal people struggle with, I am still in the fight.
Do I covet? Yes, once in a while. I don’t want another man’s wife, but there are a number of pastors whose buildings I lust after. Have I ever murdered? Not really, but if thoughts could kill, there would have been a few times.
Used the Lord’s name in vain? Did that. Dishonored parents? Did that, too. Have I loved God with all my mind, heart, soul, and strength? Sadly, no. Am I walking in unforgiveness? Not to my knowledge, but there were years when I did.
I have been in the presence of truly godly and holy people. I have been in the presence of those who pretend to be. I am somewhere in between. If I took a polygraph to prove to someone that I was without sin, then it would only prove what I, and those who know me well, already know—I need of mercy.
In my faith tradition, we do not use a polygraph to uncover hidden sin. What we do have is an ancient rite called “confession.” In the confessional, with the assurance of absolute confidentially, I am able to confront those dark areas in my life that I hide from others. In that place of safety, I am held accountable and given the counsel and direction that enables me to rise from my fallen place.
When the people in my congregation, or other priests and deacons, come to me in the confessional, they are not coming to a man with a polygraph ready to record and reveal their sins for the entire world to see. They come to a man who is a fellow struggler, to a person whose nature is also fallen, and to one who understands that they are sinners. You see, it takes one to know one.
And there in the hushed quietness of the moment, sometimes punctuated with tears and sobs, the two sinners seek a holy God and brokenly confess sins, receive help and rise from the wreckage of the moment to begin anew in this relationship with the One who is not counting our sins against us.
I cannot be the one to throw stones at the fallen pastor whose sins were so publicly made known. I cannot be the one to despise him or to judge him. I am too flawed, too fallible, too “human.” I pray that God will give him and his family the thing that I, myself, need most—mercy. And I will ask that those who find me flawed beyond their liking and approval simply pray for me, a sinner.
David Epps
Founding Pastor, Christ the King
Sharpsburg, Ga.
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I fully agree with Pastor Epps' statement, "If that’s not the dumbest, most ill-conceived, hair-brained idea I’ve ever heard, then it has to rank somewhere near the very top." If you've ever read material by Doug Weiss, you know that most of his "solutions" for sin have to do with formulas and placing certain laws on yourself or other carnal methods of behavior modification. In Galatians 3:3, the Apostle Paul asks, "Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" Amazingly, Mr. Weiss' response would be yes! This is what happens when you mix psychology with Christianity!
# posted by 
: 7:07 AM
: 7:07 AM
Why not? We all know we have sinned and fallen short. The polygraph did not say you were trying to be something you are not. But the accountability will help. I use the partner service offered on xxxchurch.com! It helps and I think twice before I log onto an inappropriate web site. What ever it takes!
# posted by : 8:39 AM
: 8:39 AM
Without meaning to sound self-righteous or arrogant, I do not agree with the sinner mentality that sounds humble but in fact serves to give excuse for not overcoming some sin or sinful lifestyle--especially if one is a pastor or church leader who is charged with setting the example for the flock.
# posted by : 8:42 AM
: 8:42 AM
In defense of both side's. The type of sin's addressed by Doug Wiess are only overcome through a healing process. James 5:16 shows us how this is possible. Confess to one another,pray for one another,that ye may be healed. The relationship with other Godly minded friends is how the scriptures instruct us to live. It is powerful and effective. When we live with this type of relationship a polgrah would be no problem and un-necessary.
Don T. Turner II
Port St. Lucie Fl.
Don T. Turner II
Port St. Lucie Fl.
# posted by : 9:30 AM
: 9:30 AM
I have to admit, this idea is an interesting one. However, it is deeply flawed. I have worked in the secular world in companies that required regular polygraphs. I can testify that the person giving the polygraph can control much of the results of these things. In one case, an employee stole money almost every day for over 5 years, undetected through over a dozen polygraphs. In another case, an employee was found "deceptive" in something we found later he could not have done, because he was not even in town when the event happened. In other words, I don't trust polygraphs, I trust the Holy Spirit. Can we just not listen to Him and obey those leadings in a Biblical, loving way? This seems to be a secular way to deal with a spiritual problem. For me, I trust that God will hold me in His loving hands and if or when I fall short, He will be the One to love me back to where I should be. As I heard it once said by a pastor friend, "I would rather fall into the hands of an angry God than a Board of Trustees and Deacons. Because God, has mercy."
With pastors and lay leaders falling and failing at rapid rates there is obviously a need for accountability. I do not believe that this would or should include a polygraph test. These tests, as others have stated, can produce flawed results. It is in the best interest of the church to provide an accountability structure or program for church leaders that can help prevent these situations. This would seem especially prudent in the cases of well-known pastors such as Haggard. Furthermore, let us keep perspective that these "failures" are in a small percentage of the overall church leadership and are highlighted by the prominence of a pastor such as Ted Haggard.
I believe that accountability is the key, but we will find that within the body of Christ, the church, not in a machine.
I believe that accountability is the key, but we will find that within the body of Christ, the church, not in a machine.
# posted by : 10:24 AM
: 10:24 AM
I too agree with Pastor Epps. Those who minister "should" be held to a higher standard of accountability. However, in our haste to hold pastors/ministers to a higher level of spiritual and physical integrity, we forget that they too are faced with the very same temptations felt by everyone and have to live with the same weaknesses and failures as others. This is not an excuse, but a fact of life. Instead of finding ways to pull them down if/when they fail, how about working just as hard to help restore them through prayer and counseling. I remember Jesus saying "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone...".
# posted by : 10:42 AM
: 10:42 AM
Here's my 2 cents worth:
I think its not so much the polygraph part that we should be stunned at: i think we should really be aware of the outrage that has been caused in the world around us.
Why is the world outraged? Of course the world is always outraged at us - christianity is a resounding slap in the face for the world and its values. However, in this case, there seems to be something more.
Let me take a guess here - could this extra storm be because we waved high standards with a condemning air, while passing ourselves off to be some superior being we are not?
I got this comment in an email exchange with a fellow christian: "You need to be a christian to have a happy marriage", as if all christians have perfect marriages. Coming from a non-christian past, I was trying not to choke on her words, while actively trying not to remind her of the fact that we know some christian couples who are unhappily divorced.
what is exactly the christian position?
well - the basics taught in the bible is "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". all means all, no matter which race, denomination, family, creed, height, IQ or colour we are. So when standing next to someone on the streets outside, we can look at each other knowing that "we've all fallen short of God's glory".
The christian person enjoy a slight difference here - we are saved. That doesn't make us superior in any way, but it just means that we got it through our thick heads that God really means whatever He said and we responded to it. but of course, that's no reason to sport a superior complex: we did nothing to earn it, and we did not choose Him, He chose us and spoke to our hearts.
Besides, anyone who is feeling particularly pleased with his own christian walk should really take a hard look at his own nature and compare that with what God expects. that's really humbling if you are honest with yourself.
Christians are not perfect, but we aren't exactly a self-help group trying ways and means to psych ourselves into what we are not. we are still "very much on the way", we have still a very long way to go and despite our failings, by the grace of God, we will make it home.
Now, if we can let the world around us know that "we (the church) need God too. we ain't better, but we know Someone who is perfect" and "that Someone gave His life for us so that we can come out of that senseless mess we're all in", maybe this would make more sense than our evangelistic crusades, our altar calls, our sin-blasting and the bible thumping.
Note: I'm not a seeker-friendly advocate. I'm just grace-aware, and I do frequent reality checks.
I think its not so much the polygraph part that we should be stunned at: i think we should really be aware of the outrage that has been caused in the world around us.
Why is the world outraged? Of course the world is always outraged at us - christianity is a resounding slap in the face for the world and its values. However, in this case, there seems to be something more.
Let me take a guess here - could this extra storm be because we waved high standards with a condemning air, while passing ourselves off to be some superior being we are not?
I got this comment in an email exchange with a fellow christian: "You need to be a christian to have a happy marriage", as if all christians have perfect marriages. Coming from a non-christian past, I was trying not to choke on her words, while actively trying not to remind her of the fact that we know some christian couples who are unhappily divorced.
what is exactly the christian position?
well - the basics taught in the bible is "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". all means all, no matter which race, denomination, family, creed, height, IQ or colour we are. So when standing next to someone on the streets outside, we can look at each other knowing that "we've all fallen short of God's glory".
The christian person enjoy a slight difference here - we are saved. That doesn't make us superior in any way, but it just means that we got it through our thick heads that God really means whatever He said and we responded to it. but of course, that's no reason to sport a superior complex: we did nothing to earn it, and we did not choose Him, He chose us and spoke to our hearts.
Besides, anyone who is feeling particularly pleased with his own christian walk should really take a hard look at his own nature and compare that with what God expects. that's really humbling if you are honest with yourself.
Christians are not perfect, but we aren't exactly a self-help group trying ways and means to psych ourselves into what we are not. we are still "very much on the way", we have still a very long way to go and despite our failings, by the grace of God, we will make it home.
Now, if we can let the world around us know that "we (the church) need God too. we ain't better, but we know Someone who is perfect" and "that Someone gave His life for us so that we can come out of that senseless mess we're all in", maybe this would make more sense than our evangelistic crusades, our altar calls, our sin-blasting and the bible thumping.
Note: I'm not a seeker-friendly advocate. I'm just grace-aware, and I do frequent reality checks.
Go ahead and use the polygraph on the outward actions, but please stay away from my mind! If the inward is not as pure as the outward, that means I am just as guilty. Yes, let's have some form of accountability and realize at the same time that we are all in process. While I focus on HIS perfection, I am oh soooo aware of my imperfection - that's why I need a Saviour. Leaders must walk the talk.
What has happened to being in "Fear of the Lord"When did we last teach our people about Holiness?When did we last go down to our church and truely repent of all the garbage we see in our lives?why do we not decide that we as pastors will set the standard,too much dunkin leaders,dip them in the coffee of life and they fall apart,just like the rest.If you are scared of His polygraph test,get out of the ministry.time for weeping to be heard in the pulpits,before Sunday show!
# posted by : 11:52 AM
: 11:52 AM
It's wonderful for folks who have 'conquered' sin in a particular area, to give such strong recommendations. It just goes to show us that God's grace is STILL amazing. Ministers of the Gospel are subject to temptations, just like everyone else. What is sad to me is that Pastor Ted was functioning as a Pastor... WITH his issues, I'm sure that his congregation and staff ministers knew that he was a good pastor. He was loved and respected. As soon as news comes out, it is almost as if all of his work has vanished. NOT SO! Now ALL ministers are subject to this? I don't think so. The question is... if Ted had never been outed, would he STILL be in postition?
If ministers have to do it, then EVERYONE must.
Ok... I'm done venting!
If ministers have to do it, then EVERYONE must.
Ok... I'm done venting!
# posted by : 3:05 PM
: 3:05 PM
You are right,as has already been said,Leadership has a higher degree of accountability.I think judgement starts with the ministers and the time for poor standards has come to an end.Integrity in the pulpit or it will all end in tears!
# posted by : 3:13 PM
: 3:13 PM
I admire the example of the young Joseph when shaking off the overtures of Potiphar's wife:It is better to loose your coat, than your character.Of course we all have temptations in the ministry, but we are expected to do the right thing because of the annointing!It is better to go to goal for a couple of years because of lies than to loose the presence of the Holy Spirit.Paul told his protege "flee Youthful lusts".If we are still having them, the injunction is still to: RUN.
# posted by : 5:31 PM
: 5:31 PM
The sadest thing is that we are all products of human psychology. If you read the comments, there are two basic camps: those for polygraph and those aganist. Yet, I can't help and wonder why we are not addressing the sin? Yes. Weare not perfect. Yes. We fall. But where is the confession? Having someone publicly read a statement for you is not a confession. Confession is a public acknowledgement of our sins. The one thing Ted did not do is publicly confess himself and ask for our forgiveness. Healing is not a process. That is not found in the Bible. What the Bible does state is that if we confess our sins, then we are forgiven. No amount of humanistic healing can forgive our sins. The Bible teaches that healing is for our bodies, not for the forgiveness of sins. We need to stand on Scripture before we comment based on human perception of sin.
Rev Walter Jimenez, Lakeland, Florida
Rev Walter Jimenez, Lakeland, Florida
# posted by : 7:12 PM
: 7:12 PM
Pastors should all have poligraph test to establish that they are useing my sermons,nothing to compare on the net!
# posted by : 5:35 AM
: 5:35 AM
A CALL FOR HOLINESS, INTEGRITY & ACCOUNTABILITY
The Lord is calling for Pastors to walk in holiness, righteousness and in purity before Him. Pastors need to guard against surrounding themselves with a bunch of ‘yes men’. Rather, he needs to have those that he is in close relationship with, to know him, his wife and his family. It is imperative that he have those around him who will be open to ask the hard questions of both the Leader and his wife. And, if needed bring correction where correction is needed. The Lord is raising up true Apostolic Fathers today who will humbly walk in the authority, and in the power and love of their God. These will be men who have hearts to see true restoration take place. They will also desire to see holiness, righteousness and purity maintained within the ‘Body of Christ’. These Apostles will declare judgment upon those who continue in their sins. We will begin to see Ananias and Sapphira type experiences decreed upon those who remain unrepentant of their sins. We will even begin to hear of men who have died in their pulpits because they were unwilling to give up their sin. This will cause a holy fear to come upon the Church, for we serve a holy and a just God who will not wink at sin.
The Lord is calling for Pastors to walk in holiness, righteousness and in purity before Him. Pastors need to guard against surrounding themselves with a bunch of ‘yes men’. Rather, he needs to have those that he is in close relationship with, to know him, his wife and his family. It is imperative that he have those around him who will be open to ask the hard questions of both the Leader and his wife. And, if needed bring correction where correction is needed. The Lord is raising up true Apostolic Fathers today who will humbly walk in the authority, and in the power and love of their God. These will be men who have hearts to see true restoration take place. They will also desire to see holiness, righteousness and purity maintained within the ‘Body of Christ’. These Apostles will declare judgment upon those who continue in their sins. We will begin to see Ananias and Sapphira type experiences decreed upon those who remain unrepentant of their sins. We will even begin to hear of men who have died in their pulpits because they were unwilling to give up their sin. This will cause a holy fear to come upon the Church, for we serve a holy and a just God who will not wink at sin.
What are we, companions of the devil looking to accuse and condemn? Or maybe fruit inspectors, if we flip the coin around, either way to enter into these activities we go to places we don't belong. The Bible says that when an elder sins rebuke him publicly. Polygraphs, and playing detective would be a trespass for a christian and a boon to the devil.
# posted by : 4:33 PM
: 4:33 PM
The church doesn't need a lie detector to discover who is in need of being set aside for restoration. This advocacy literally screams, "the church has lost it's spiritual discernment and so we need to depend on man's wisdom to root out scandal going on behind closed doors." It's time to fast and pray, draw near to the Lord, and ask for the gift of discernment which He already wants to give to His church.
# posted by : 11:05 PM
: 11:05 PM
Yes, we are all sinners, but we are supposed to be grieved by our sin, not trying everything we can to conceal it. God has given His people plenty of resouces to keep us on track (if we want to be kept on track), ample resources for accountibility (if we want to be held accountable), support, again if we are humble enough to reach out for all these things. We fall because of pride, we don't succeed because we won't, not can't submit to God's ways. They are hard but so wonderful. How much harder is it to go down the path of secret sin, only to lose everything, including our precious Pride that got us in that predicament to begin with. Humility, reaching out, accountability. This is what we need. A Pastor has a responsibility to stay and remain close to God, he is responsible for many people's spiritual well-being. A lie detector is just the beginning of how much accountibility should be in the lives of men that lead. If you lead without it, I will surmise and guess that you have some sort of secret sin in your life. If you are blameless, you have nothing to hide, nothing to fear. Jesus himself had 12 guys following him around watching his every move. Are we to be any higher than Jesus?
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# posted by : 7:27 PM
: 7:27 PMLinks to this post:
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